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Upvotes and Downvotes don’t work in big internet discussions

A few years back when I first discovered Reddit, I found it to be a place full of insight and interesting content.

As someone that was used to traditional bulletin boards, the idea that most valuable content appeared at the top of a comment thread actually blew my mind.

Rather than the comments all being treated as equal, and just being displayed in chronological order, they were instead shown in the order that the community decided.

I loved the fact that someone might create a thread that linked to some content, and then the top voted comment was usually someone who was an expert in that field and could shed more light on the content. Users could then collaborate with them and garner more information.

The community decides a comment’s value through a system of upvoting and downvoting.

Here’s the problem – what one user thinks is upvote worthy, another user may not think is upvote worthy. Now this isn’t a big problem for smaller communities – e.g. a subreddit with a few hundred subscribers about something specific, like a particular model of a car. This is because it’s users all have a shared interest and will generally agree on what should be upvoted and what shouldn’t

When a community has a broader appeal (e.g. news, or funny images), this model is flipped on it’s head. There is no longer a united community present. The community has fewer common interests. So what content will appeal to most users? Something simple usually. Something that is quick to read and easy to understand. This usually is an attempt at being funny or witty, and might make you chuckle for a moment, but will not add any more insight into the subject at question. These will get the highest number of upvotes, leaving anything of genuine insight or value to sink to the bottom and drown in a sea of pointless remarks.

This can be illustrated very easily. Any thread on a popular subreddit will generally take the following format:

1. Thread posted linking to an image or article

2. Top voted comment is a statement of under 20 words attempting to be funny.

3. A deep thread of unfunny attempts at being witty are anchored to the top voted comment, as other redditors eagerly jump in an attempt at getting a few upvotes.

This breaks the upvote and downvote model. The top voted comment no longer adds any real value to the discussion, but instead distracts you. Comment voting systems are now bringing the noise back, and in a much worse way than chronological comments ever did. In wide appealing communities, they are a race to the bottom. The user that can write the most unintelligent, slapstick comment in the least amount of words wins the fake internet points.

You now need to scroll down through the comments and hunt for the points of genuine insight that actually add value to the discussion.

As the community collectively gets more and more unintelligent, this problem gets worse. Users will even downvote comments or linked articles that are factually accurate simply because they dislike it. This community is now a horrible place to be.

It isn’t just a Reddit problem. Upvoting systems have been bolted onto many discussion mediums as the internet woke up to their auto noise filtering benefits.

Have a look at this comment thread on a Guardian article about the ongoing shitstorm at Tesco PLC. The TL;DR is that Tesco have managed to overstate their profits by£250 Million, causing £2 Billion to be wiped off the company’s value, and resulting in many senior managers getting suspended.

The comment thread is a festival of eye rolling idiocy, as the idiots take over and have an idiotic circlejerk free-for-all of bullshit, probably whilst on their lunch breaks at work. We can easily put the comments into 4 categories:

1. Slaptick attempts at being funny in as few words as possible

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 15.45.24

Thanks – your comment is funny but adds no value. 40 Upvotes at the time of writing.

2. Idiotically wild conspiracies that miss the point by a few hundred planets

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 15.48.25

This comment very misinformed, claiming that the whole episode is an attempt by Tesco to get their corporation tax bill down. Let’s just go over that for a minute – Tesco’s deliberately wiped off £6 Billion from their share price and suspended lots of senior managers, so that they could avoid tax? Oh and by the way, if you make more profit you pay more corporation tax.

101 upvotes at the time of writing. So thats at least 101 people that have read the comment and had some sort of belief in it. The upvote count is telling you that this comment has some sort of value. It doesn’t. It’s worthless.

3. Comments that have nothing to do with the current discussion

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 15.54.37

76 upvotes for the person telling us about their food shopping bill. Thanks. This comment reminds me of the “I brought my own mic!” line from a classic Simpsons episode.I brought my own mic

Sitting there, smugly telling us irrelevant information that we don’t need to know. It’s almost spam.

4. Comments that actually contribute to the current discussion

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 16.03.10And there we have it – this comment spurred a valuable discussion thread related to the content of the topic. 18 measly upvotes.

How do we fix this?

1 – Turn off comments

One of the fixes is to remove comments. On a news article that states factual information about something that has happened, how much value can the community really add? Well, I think the community can always add value and insight, especially for those that will want to dig deeper into a particular subject or story, so I wouldn’t like to see this happen.

2 – Filter the noise in a better way

I’ve got a few ideas how you could filter the noise out of discussion threads.

Rather than simply upvoting or downvoting, why don’t we apply a tag instead? Upvoting just feels too broad – if you upvote something it may be because you find it funny, because you agree with it, or because you found it insightful. So what if you could drag an icon onto a comment that represented how you felt about it instead?

So looking at our first comment from above:

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 15.45.24

This would have 40 “funny” tags instead of 40 upvotes.

And our final comment:

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 16.03.10

Would have 18 “insightful” tags.

You could then even put comment threads into “funny” mode, where the comments are sorted by the highest number of “funny” tags. Likewise with “insight” mode, where the comments would be sorted by the highest number of “insight” tags. This is similar to how canvas used to work, before Christopher Poole pulled it.

I think this could work, so I’m going to see if I can create something that will use this commenting system. Watch this space.

Entity Framework, Technical

In defence of the RDBMS: Development is not slow. You just need better tooling.

I pride myself on being a real world software developer.

Anything that I publish in this blog is a result of a some real world coding. I don’t just play around with small, unrealistic demoware applications. I write real world applications that get used by lots of users.

With experience comes wisdom, and in software part of that wisdom is knowing when to employ a certain technology. There is almost never a right or wrong answer on what technologies you should be using on a project, as there are plenty of factors to consider. They usually include:

  • Is technology x supposed to be the right tool for this job?
  • Do we have the knowledge to work with and become productive in technology x within the scope of the budget?
  • How mature is technology x?

The above questions will even have varying importance depending on where you are currently working. If you are working at an agency, where budgets must be stuck to in order for the company to make a profit, and long term support must be considered, then the last two points from the above have a greater importance.

If you are working in house for a company that has it’s own product, then the last two points become less important.

Just about the only wrong reason would be something like:

  • Is technology x the latest and greatest thing, getting plenty of buzz on podcasts, blogs and twitter?

This doesn’t mean you should be using it on all projects right now. This just means that technology x is something that you ought to look into and make your own assessment (I’ll let you guess where it might be on the technology hype life cycle). But is this project the right place to make that assessment? Perhaps, but it will certainly increase your project’s risk if you think that it is.

One of the technologies that we are hearing more and more about are NoSQL databases. I won’t go into explanation details here, but you should be able to get a good background from this Wikipedia article.

Whilst I have no issues with NoSQL databases, I do take issue with one of the arguments against RDBMS’s – that development against them is slow. I have now seen several blog posts that have argued that developing with a NoSQL databases makes your development faster, which would imply that developing against a traditional RDBMS is slow. This isn’t true. You just need to improve your tooling.

Here’s a snippet from the mongo db “NoSQL Databases Explained” page:

NoSQL databases are built to allow the insertion of data without a predefined schema. That makes it easy to make significant application changes in real-time, without worrying about service interruptions – which means development is faster, code integration is more reliable, and less database administrator time is needed.

Well I don’t know about you guys, but I haven’t had to call upon the services of a DBA for a long time. And nearly all of my applications are backed by a SQL Server database. Snippets like the above totally miss a key thing out – the tooling.

Looking specifically at .net development, the tooling for database development has advanced massively in the last 6 years or so. And that is largely down to the plethora of ORMs that are available. We now no longer need to spend time writing stored procedures and data access code. We now no longer need to manually put together SQL scripts to handle schema changes (migrations). Those are real world huge development time savers – and they come at a much smaller cost as at the core is a well understood technology (unless your development team is packed with NoSQL experts).

Let’s look specifically at the real world use. Most new applications that I create will be built using Entity Framework code first. This gives me object mapping and schema migration with no difficulty.

It also gives me total control over the migration of my application’s database:

  1. I can ask Entity Framework to generate a script of the migrations that need to be run on the database. This can then be run manually against the application, and the application will even warn you at runtime if the schema is missing a migration
  2. I can have my deployment process migrate the database. The Entity Framework team bundle a console app that can be packaged up and called from another process – migrate.exe
  3. I can have my application migrate itself. That’s right – Entity Framework even allows me to run migrations programatically. It’s not exactly hard either.

My point is this: whilst the migrating of a schema may not be something that you would need to do in a NoSQL database (although you would need to handle these changes further up your application’s stack), making schema changes to an RDBMS’s schema just isn’t as costly or painful as is being made out.

Think again before you dismiss good ol’ RDBMS development as slow – because it hasn’t been slow for me for a long time.